Curse

FengShuiDove · Aug 03, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I really find great joy and amusement reading through any post suggesting that Shadow Form should be outright removed from the game. Anyone who thinks that that might actually occur is clearly not aware of the fact that that skill was around for 2 years+ before the PvE only skills and consumables which broke the fundamentals of the game were added.

If ANet are sad about speed clearing, maybe they should have thought about the fact that the best teams were already completing all the super high end areas in 1-2 hour times before spawning a load of items and skills in their game that make all the balancing factors of all the battle encounters (recharge times, energy costs, energy availability, damage dealt, damage taken) completely fly out the window. How can they complain about people finishing things in a fraction of the time it used to take when they designed a lot of new equipment and skills specifically to make the players faster, more powerful and more damage resistant?

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyup. Permanent upkeep of Shadow Form has been possible since Nightfall and [[Deadly Paradox]. [[Cry of Pain] was also in the game when Nightfall released. Why was there no epic QQ then?

Glyph of Swiftness, Consumables, and massive amounts of overpowered PvE only skills. Let's analyze.

1. The first PUG-friendly "speed clear" groups were Ursan. Eye of the North PvE only skill was specifically the problem. Ursan Blessing nerfed.

2. With the advent of dungeons, running became extremely popular. Well over half the time, this is accomplished by a 600/Smite combination, although occasionally support players (QZ spirit Ranger or Monk, Permasin to run/clear certain floors/areas) are added. Permas can run a select few dungeons by themselves, but 600/Smite is the clearest, most obvious killer of dungeons.

3. Next came UWSC and other Speed Clears. But wait! What was the composition of the first UWSC groups? One A/Me Permasin and several E/Me [[Glyph of Swiftness] Obsidian Flesh Eles. Either consumables or an Eye of the North skill (in most instances both) were to blame for the very earliest Speed Clear setups. When people realized later than Shadow Form Sins could tank and damage just as well without the infamous "Obby crawl", builds were conjured to replaced the ObFlesh Eles. However, those Ele builds, and 600/Smite/55 builds as well, are still viable for Speed Clear style setups. Perhaps more builds, that would surely arise if Shadow Form was nerfed (or have already been made and tested but have not become general knowledge).

4. Though not chronologically last, I chose this one last to drive the point home: Discordway. I love it, personally, and love the flexibility of the bars I can run. Sure, I'm stuck with Asuran Scan or Assassin's Promise as a feeder hex on every bar, but I couldn't tell you how many different setups I've been able to run with Discordway. Still, some people say they hate it and that it should be nerfed. What does Discordway (in the simplest cases) depend on? The fearsome chain of Assassin's Promise-->"You Move Like a Dwarf!"-->Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support-->"Finish Him!". Let's count... uhhh, 3 GW:EN PvE only skills. Right in a friggin' row too. How poetic.

Shadow Form broke the game? Fail. The only broken thing about Shadow Form was the Planes farm, and ya know what, it was adequately fixed by adjusting the behavior of the mobs! ANet made a great choice there, it's still farmable, but it's slow enough that people aren't farming stacks of ectos in several hours anymore. Sounds like something else... oh yeah. 55 Monks. A historically influential build that destroyed a few areas in the UW with such incredible efficiency that it had to be beaten with the nerf stick. What's funny? 55's are still around, and still viable in certain places, but no longer a "problem" people feel obligated to whine about.

Shadow Form is the exact same way. The only complaint people have with Shadow Form is that it's currently the best known option for Speed Clear groups. But clearly, the problem doesn't hinge on what pops up when you scroll over the skill icon of the Elite Enchantment Spell Shadow Form. And changing that will NOT solve the problems that Shadow Form is so often attributed to causing.

Avarre · Aug 03, 2009, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyup. Permanent upkeep of Shadow Form has been possible since Nightfall and [[Deadly Paradox]. [[Cry of Pain] was also in the game when Nightfall released. Why was there no epic QQ then?

I'm not sure exactly what kind of point you're trying to make. That people who don't realize what kind of farming build can be made don't complain, and thus this makes the skill alright? Of course, PvE skill complaints, specifically regarding mesmer direct AoE, have been going on for longer than EotN existed. As well as comments regarding a skill that hard-counters everything else.

Quote:

Shadow Form broke the game? Fail.

Wonderful, no doubt your rebuttal will take the form of a humorous cat.

You make the comparisons between 55-SS/smite builds and SF but you don't actually compare anything. We've gone over this before in previous threads - the time for 2 SFs blows 55 or smite teams completely out of the water. PvE balance hinges on, rather than making the players and monsters even, keeping all the players even. SF has no equal.

Quote:

But clearly, the problem doesn't hinge on what pops up when you scroll over the skill icon of the Elite Enchantment Spell Shadow Form.

Is that so? You don't see a problem with skills that disregard a fundamental aspect of the game?

A game designed around hard and soft counters, where previously it took expensive and high-recharge elites to avoid spells (SB) and physical attacks (Mistform), is presented with a skill that allows an indefinite hard counter to all physical and magical attacks and you don't think that's a problem of game design at all?

garethporlest18 · Aug 03, 2009, 07:00 AM // 07:00

The basic fact is, Shadow Form makes more or as much money as the pre nerf Prot Bond did. There is only 2 things that would make you more money, something bannable, and power trading.

If Anet took Shadow Form out of the game or made it impossible to up-keep. 95% of the teams forming for farming, would be stopped, things would get more expensive, and nothing would change really. At this stage in the game, it doesn't really matter. Anet probably doesn't touch it because they want people to make money for their overpriced titles.

FengShuiDove · Aug 03, 2009, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Wonderful, no doubt your rebuttal will take the form of a humorous cat.

And clearly a respectful post deserves a slap in the face from a mod. Classy. Please waste your night searching every one of my posts for an argument hastily cast aside by a lawlcat picture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You make the comparisons between 55-SS/smite builds and SF but you don't actually compare anything. We've gone over this before in previous threads - the time for 2 SFs blows 55 or smite teams completely out of the water. PvE balance hinges on, rather than making the players and monsters even, keeping all the players even. SF has no equal.

The only comparison necessary is viability. If it can be included in a Speed Clear build as a suitable replacement for what is currently used, then it's comparable, for all intents and purposes of this argument. UWSC, since it's the primary example, has evolved incredibly from where it began due to certain nerfs and, more importantly, optimizations of the various roles necessary to complete the quests given in the Underworld and pop the end chest. However, that doesn't mean that all former "models" are ineffective or that future models won't be more effective.

Here's what will happen if Shadow Form itself is nerfed out of usage: There will be a temporary period of brainstorming from groups from every corner of the game after which groups will either revert to a more archaic form of UWSC (and other clears, whatever) or new builds will be developed/revealed that rival, if not beat, the times of what we currently have. I can't believe this argument still doesn't sit with people. Does no one realize that the Ursan nerf brought about the popularization of Cryway?

EDIT: Errrr, also, keeping all the players even? That's... simply laughable. Since when have certain builds not had extreme popularity in the PvE meta because of insanely higher effectiveness and/or ease of use? I don't feel like I need to provide examples.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Is that so? You don't see a problem with skills that disregard a fundamental aspect of the game?

A game designed around hard and soft counters, where previously it took expensive and high-recharge elites to avoid spells (SB) and physical attacks (Mistform), is presented with a skill that allows an indefinite hard counter to all physical and magical attacks and you don't think that's a problem of game design at all?

And why is an investment of 12 attribute points into Earth Magic and proper equipment any less broken? Or an investment into Protection Prayers and proper skills? An Obsidian Flesh tank invests in exactly one attribute line to really make or break the build. Yeah, there's a few supporting skills from other lines, but the consequences are ultimately the same. The damage is better from an Obby tank because of +1+3 Earth Magic and no 33% less damage like with Shadow Form. The only difference is the moving speed. And, oh wait, it's only in between mobs that it really makes a difference. And, oh wait, it's only in between mobs and while Obsidian Flesh is up.

Here, tell ya what. If Shadow Form gets nerfed, I'll dig up this post when the new speed clear build is posted that can clear UW or FoW in (heaven forbid) 5 extra minutes. Sure, it's a powerful skill, but it's not the problem. It's a means to get to an end, and just like all the other typical farming skills/builds it's a way to exploit the extremely exploitable game mechanics that allow elite areas to be cleared in incredibly low amounts of time.

Gli · Aug 03, 2009, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

[[Cry of Pain] was also in the game when Nightfall released.

No, it was added something like 7 or 8 months later.

FengShuiDove · Aug 03, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

No, it was added something like 7 or 8 months later.

I'm... not sure if this is supposed to be a counter to my arguments or just a historical note. The point is that the skill was around long before it was popular as a Speed Clear mechanic.

EDIT @post below: In which case, thanks

.

Gli · Aug 03, 2009, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

I'm... not sure if this is supposed to be a counter to my arguments or just a historical note. The point is that the skill was around long before it was popular as a Speed Clear mechanic.

Consider it a historical note.

Avarre · Aug 03, 2009, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Here, tell ya what. If Shadow Form gets nerfed, I'll dig up this post when the new speed clear build is posted that can clear UW or FoW in (heaven forbid) 5 extra minutes. Sure, it's a powerful skill, but it's not the problem. It's a means to get to an end, and just like all the other typical farming skills/builds it's a way to exploit the extremely exploitable game mechanics that allow elite areas to be cleared in incredibly low amounts of time.

We're not talking 5 extra minutes, though. The disparity between SF and 55 times is on the scale of hours. A lot of this is because of the far lower mobility of the team, and its reliance on a tank and glass-cannon nuker team setup.

I'd hope, as you assert, nobody is ignoring the fact that PvE design is exploitable in all cases of farming. Should ANet be strengthening such exploitable tactics?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Does no one realize that the Ursan nerf brought about the popularization of Cryway?

People complained about Cry at the same time, much as they complained about Spiritual Pain, too. The big difference in focus, though, was that Ursan was more retarded in game terms - throwing skillbar, character, attributes and so on out. Yes, removing the easiest option opened the way for the next, but that doesn't mean either needed to be in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

And why is an investment of 12 attribute points into Earth Magic and proper equipment any less broken? Or an investment into Protection Prayers and proper skills?

Show me where either matches the speed of SF in terms of 2-man/8-man functionality, and I'll grant you that. Though I will also say that the synergy between SoA/SH and PS is a bit silly.

My apologies for hostility, but I have low patience for internet memes like 'fail'.

Grj · Aug 03, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

So its ok to have broken skill/builds like the 55/600/smite but Shadow Form has to be nerfed where by the only difference is the speed of which an area can be cleared?

People on this fourm make me laugh when they suppport nerfing stuff under the balance crusade, but the 55/600/smite whatever its variation can stay because thats not as bad as the evil that is Shadow Form.

Love this fourm and its "pick and choose" what they want nerfed, but hide behind the "balance" but other broken/overpowered stuff can stay.

Targren · Aug 03, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Anet played no part in it.
So really, GW economy is nonexistent since it is all done by setting trends, all with an infinite source of money.

While that *should* be true, it isn't. Remember the forced reset when ectos hit 3k during the Ursan Wars. I'm pretty sure that's when they implemented "floor" values for things like runes and scrolls, too.

Avarre · Aug 03, 2009, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

So its ok to have broken skill/builds like the 55/600/smite but Shadow Form has to be nerfed where by the only difference is the speed of which an area can be cleared?

People on this fourm make me laugh when they suppport nerfing stuff under the balance crusade, but the 55/600/smite whatever its variation can stay because thats not as bad as the evil that is Shadow Form.

Love this fourm and its "pick and choose" what they want nerfed, but hide behind the "balance" but other broken/overpowered stuff can stay.

Facts:

1: SF is stronger than 55/600/smite and can work solo and team more effectively. Hence, it needs more attention.

2: The synergy of SH/SoA and PS has drawn complaints for making monk tanking indefinitely strong and easy. That, too, might be worth an adjustment.

3: Ignoring the ridiculous difference in UW clearing time for 2 man teams (SF approx 1 hour, 55/SS several hours) by trivializing it implies you just wanted to apply your paltry sarcasm rather than be useful.

beanerman_99 · Aug 03, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

I don't know what to think about Shadow Form anymore. It just seems to me like it is an extremely overpowered skill that should have been removed from the game a long long time ago. The ability to keep it up continually and become invincible with no effort is disconcerning to say the least. To me this seems like a broken skill. If there were a skill like this in other games do you think it would be around long or be removed?

Regarding the whole SF vs. 600 smite debate, it seems to me that there are fewer people doing 600smite runs. Yes it was happening, but not on the scale that the SF permasin runs are happening. Every where I go there are permasins. hard to say what I am getting at... I guess I don't think 600 or 55 were that big of a problem cause fewer people did it. Compare it to the number of people SFing and I think there is huge difference. This leads me to believe that something is broken and needs to be fixed.

Personally though, when it comes down to it, I really am not bothered by any of it. It does not affect my gameplay and how I chose to play. I can't be bothered by taking the time to get a sin all those titles and EOTN skills needed to make Perma-ing work. This game, for me, is on borrowed time anyways. I will be buying GW2 the day of release and moving on.

Ate of DK · Aug 03, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

99% chance it will get nerfed. whahahaha.

Daesu · Aug 03, 2009, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

Regarding the whole SF vs. 600 smite debate, it seems to me that there are fewer people doing 600smite runs. Yes it was happening, but not on the scale that the SF permasin runs are happening. Every where I go there are permasins. hard to say what I am getting at... I guess I don't think 600 or 55 were that big of a problem cause fewer people did it. Compare it to the number of people SFing and I think there is huge difference. This leads me to believe that something is broken and needs to be fixed.

They should just nerf them all. You see fewer 600/smite because they require 2 accounts. But they are all easy and overpowered.

Tullzinski · Aug 03, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

If someone uses SF in PVE how does this affect anyone else PVE game? Does it keep you from completing the storyline/elite areas? How does SF stop anyone from completing those areas? Next for the nerf bat: 600s, Discord Teams, new builds? Where the hell do you all stop? Eight basic skills for everyone. Boy that will be fun...

All I see is alot of griping about whatever electronic peni$ item has been reduced in "value" since whatever electronic peni$ item is overfarmed. Blah Blah Blah economy Blah Blah Blah. None of this affects your actual individual game play.

Everyone has the option to make the game as easy or as hard as YOU want to!!! Don't like SF, don't use it, simple, go into the underworld with nothing but low end skills like flare and no armor and no skills points assigned, if that is fun for you then go for it.

ANET, do yourself a favor quit wasting time and money nerfing stuff in PVE, let people have fun as they see fit. Look for ways to make it more fun for everyone. Why were there so many 55s/permasins/killer builds? Because people are enjoying getting stuff and kicking ass for whatever reason. Why is that bad?

My new mantra!!!: Restore Ursan! No More Nerfs! Buy all the accounts you want! Farm until you pass out! Abuse XTH! Solo God Builds for every profession! Unstoppable Hero Builds! 7 Heroes FTW! If you don't like it don't use it! Keep the F%#K out of my fun!

Destro Maniak · Aug 03, 2009, 03:29 PM // 15:29

I hope sf never gets nerfed, and youll spent your life bitching in threads of this kind

Avarre · Aug 03, 2009, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

If someone uses SF in PVE how does this affect anyone else PVE game? Does it keep you from completing the storyline/elite areas? How does SF stop anyone from completing those areas? Next for the nerf bat: 600s, Discord Teams, new builds? Where the hell do you all stop? Eight basic skills for everyone. Boy that will be fun...

All I see is alot of griping about whatever electronic peni$ item has been reduced in "value" since whatever electronic peni$ item is overfarmed. Blah Blah Blah economy Blah Blah Blah. None of this affects your actual individual game play.

Everyone has the option to make the game as easy or as hard as YOU want to!!! Don't like SF, don't use it, simple, go into the underworld with nothing but low end skills like flare and no armor and no skills points assigned, if that is fun for you then go for it.

ANET, do yourself a favor quit wasting time and money nerfing stuff in PVE, let people have fun as they see fit. Look for ways to make it more fun for everyone. Why were there so many 55s/permasins/killer builds? Because people are enjoying getting stuff and kicking ass for whatever reason. Why is that bad?

My new mantra!!!: Restore Ursan! No More Nerfs! Buy all the accounts you want! Farm until you pass out! Abuse XTH! Solo God Builds for every profession! Unstoppable Hero Builds! 7 Heroes FTW! If you don't like it don't use it! Keep the F%#K out of my fun!

Why bother, they can just release cheat codes.

Yichi · Aug 03, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

If someone uses SF in PVE how does this affect anyone else PVE game? Does it keep you from completing the storyline/elite areas? How does SF stop anyone from completing those areas? Next for the nerf bat: 600s, Discord Teams, new builds? Where the hell do you all stop? Eight basic skills for everyone. Boy that will be fun...

All I see is alot of griping about whatever electronic peni$ item has been reduced in "value" since whatever electronic peni$ item is overfarmed. Blah Blah Blah economy Blah Blah Blah. None of this affects your actual individual game play.

Everyone has the option to make the game as easy or as hard as YOU want to!!! Don't like SF, don't use it, simple, go into the underworld with nothing but low end skills like flare and no armor and no skills points assigned, if that is fun for you then go for it.

ANET, do yourself a favor quit wasting time and money nerfing stuff in PVE, let people have fun as they see fit. Look for ways to make it more fun for everyone. Why were there so many 55s/permasins/killer builds? Because people are enjoying getting stuff and kicking ass for whatever reason. Why is that bad?

My new mantra!!!: Restore Ursan! No More Nerfs! Buy all the accounts you want! Farm until you pass out! Abuse XTH! Solo God Builds for every profession! Unstoppable Hero Builds! 7 Heroes FTW! If you don't like it don't use it! Keep the F%#K out of my fun!

So should we waste the time again to go through your post and prove to you why each and every one of your points has been discredited towards proper game design?

Or shall we just say "You're a tool" and move on?

Shemsu Anpw · Aug 03, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Down with UWSC with a team of Sins and Con sets.

That being said. I do enjoy my Sin. I DO believe something should be done. UW should not be done so quickly, and especially exclusive to UWSC. I enjoyed doing UW and FoW for Hall of Monuments and the few other times I played in a group but the super quick speed clear takes something away form the area. Making Cons not useable in elite areas seems like it would be a step in the right direction. I have found that trying to get a group together for UW and FoW at this time to be a pain if not impossible. I saw UWSC being offered in Doomlore last night 40k a person(I'm sure its limited space due to team positions) is that what we have been brought to...running a speed clear of UW or FoW....I say no...even if SF has to be nerfed(which I do not want) something has to be done. Randomize the type of Monsters..change them out..add spectral versions of other creatures..dragons, char, skales, Kourmans, ect and of course Margonites(Yes i know they have their own area...just a suggestion). Change skills of monsters. UW and FoW have become to stagnant and abused.

I appreciate everything GW and its team does and support them 100%. I just thing something should be done at least here.

Edit: Let me clarify I have no problem with solo or team runs for like FoW armor, Spider runs , ect, or solo running certain area if your able. I have a problem with the whole Elite area being done in a fraction of time, and this is the only thing people do there now whenever I visit.

Bug John · Aug 03, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

So should we waste the time again to go through your post and prove to you why each and every one of your points has been discredited towards proper game design?

Or shall we just say "You're a tool" and move on?

In fact, all of his points are extreme, but valid.

I like to see you guys "discrediting" others opinions, but never being able to answer simple questions.

Here's one for you, simple enough: what exact influence do speed clear builds have on your gameplay ? (I'm expecting the usual failing arguments here, I wish you could surprise me this time.)